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Makotosun

Steering Head Bearings put me back into therapy.

  • Jimmy Pascol
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Just got back from the psychiatrist.  Rebuilding an old '68 DT1 and tried to swap the steering head bearings from ball-type to tapered drop-in type.  AllBalls sent a set they said would drop in but they sat above the steering neck by almost 2mm preventing the top clamp from going on.  Even if I could catch one thread with the spanner nut the steering would bind up.  I know when my azz hs bn whipped so I just replaced the old ball bearing/races party pack and got it back together as original with proper clearances and the freedom to move left/right.  Admitted myself back into the Home for the Bewildered and now I'm staring out the window trying to understand it all.  Was I wrong to think that it was a simple task and nothing could possibly go installing new parts in a fifty year old frame?   Or am I just crazy as hell?
12 Feb 2021 12:30 #1

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  • Gr8uncleal
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Replied by Gr8uncleal on topic Steering Head Bearings put me back into therapy.

All that I could accuse you of is not researching the topic here first and finding that a lot of us have had the same problem which, of course, puts us in the same camp as you! 

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The Suzuki GT550J is even worse, as you have to grind away part of the steering column to get the top set to fit. That was £25 wasted. 

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12 Feb 2021 12:36 #2

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I mentioned the potential problem with the tapered bearing kits in the thread you had months ago...  so I guess you are directing your frustration about the problem to All Balls...  not the forum?  It really shouldn't have been a complete surprise?

Here's my response from Dec 2020 in your earlier thread where you were asking about fork swaps... (Bold and underline added here)

MarkT" post=118843Nice bike and great story.


Confused on the DT1 questions... what kind of problem are you having with the steering bearings? Is it just that you want to swap to different forks? If so, why and what are you trying to achieve?

(If it's truly a 68 many here will probably consider modifying it "blasphemy"... )

One of the things about Yamaha's is the steering head races, bearings, and stem dimensions are identical for many years and models. Alls Balls might not know it but they have them. The problem with the tapered kits is they are slightly taller than original which can create issues on some models.

Stock races and balls work good and are available new... races from Yamaha... bearings are just standard 3/16" and 1/4" balls that are readily available cheap."


 
1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250
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12 Feb 2021 13:12 #3

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It'd be good even if you could only used the bottom set, because that's the one that gets a hard time & gets dented & lumpy--more so than the top because that's where the load is carried. I've never tried it but you have me thinking.
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12 Feb 2021 13:19 #4

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For what it's worth, which is nothing, these tapered bearings did fit my 74 DT360 without major issue.  The upper bearing did sit up out of the head tube by a millimeter or two but it all went together. 

They are listed for a whole bunch of applications, it seems unlikely that they actually fit all of them.
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12 Feb 2021 14:35 #5

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I have successfully used the tapered roller bearings from All Balls in 1974/5 DT100A/B, 1975 DT175B, and 1976 DT400C  as well as other brand machines.  The steering stem top nut fit on with no problem.  I am estimating he triple trees are 2-3mm farther apart.  I usually add an extra or o-ring or stock rubber ring to keep the headlight ears from being loose between the triple trees

It sounds like they don't fit on some other models at all.  Nothing wrong with the stock setup as long as you don't have any notchy or detent feel when you turn the handlebars with the front end propped up off the ground.  Handling on the street will especially suffer if the balls and races are worn.
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12 Feb 2021 19:00 #6

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  • Jimmy Pascol
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Replied by Jimmy Pascol on topic Steering Head Bearings put me back into therapy.

Mark, you were right all along. Fork swaps no longer being considered.  Will redo the DT1 in a more original look.    The decision is to use new balls and races on top and a tapered All Balls bearing on the bottom. All Balls has always been helpful and I'm very pleased with them. Thanks to everybody here for your help.  
Last edit: 12 Feb 2021 20:45 by Jimmy Pascol. Reason: Responding to members post.
12 Feb 2021 20:36 #7

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It's not about being "right"...  it's about getting the job done. 

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Since you have the parts, swap should be doable but you might need to use stock bearings and races?  My experience is the same as others in that the bottom tapered bearing seems okay if you use the original races and balls on the top. 

Good luck with whatever route you decide to take!  I know the frustration you're feeling... 

P.S.  I like All Balls stuff too...  use their bearings and seals all the time.  I've never found an old Yamaha where the tapered steering kit fits to my liking though...  always too tall and a don't like the top half of the triples not installing down as far as I'd like. 
1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250
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12 Feb 2021 21:14 #8

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(I decided to try to jump back into this thread rather than start yet another on the same topic, as my problem seems to be similar. I am not trying to 'hijack' it.)

I stumbled into the steering stem bearing issue today on the '68 DT1 project. I am really surprised that there is SO MUCH clearance between the upper bearing race and the steering stem!! 

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I have not measured the space, but the stem just 'rolls' around the inner diameter of the standard races at the top, such that to snug everything up seems to put a great deal more pressure on the balls than should be exerted.

I too have had the taper roller bearing "experience" of the top assembly being higher than desired on a '74 DT360A. My solution there was similar to others', in that I used the taper assembly at the bottom and the cup-and-cone setup at the top, using new races and loose balls. But in that instance I seem to recall that at least there was very little extra 'clearance' between the stem and bearing at the top.

In this instance there looks to be at least 1-1.5mm slop all the way around the shaft. In the parts book I see that the top and bottom bearing races are the very same part #s, as well as using different size balls.... WT???

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Do I understand from everyone else's experience that this is just the way it is? Snug things up and leave it?

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 The stem might as well be in a bushing at the top in that case.

I was hoping to finally start making some progress on this thing but I continually stumble into problems like this one that just surprise and baffle me. I am considering having a bronze bushing made to slip fit in there so the stem is supported bottom and top. 

And I take it that the K&L bearing set does not fix this, in addition to making the top clamp held by only a thread or 2?

Any other solutions aside from snug it up? 

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Last edit: 02 Jul 2022 10:08 by nhsteve.
02 Jul 2022 10:05 #9

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There are errors in parts books.  Some parts diagrams show wrong races in wrong place. 

All 4 races are different and unique parts!  Yamaha used same races on many bikes for decades so you can check a different parts list if one you found says 2 are the same. 
1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250
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02 Jul 2022 10:48 #10

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