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Makotosun

1976 DT125 Charging woes .. Im lost .. HELP!?!

  • Luke4554
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Let me start off by saying, THANK YOU.  Ive "lurked" on this board for sometime reading and making notes of several helpful threads within the forum.  This is my first time posting, but ive spent lots of hours searching and reading up to this point.  I have a 1976 DT125 that is fairly new to me.  The bike is in pretty good condition for a bike of its age but the charging system and electric start hasnt worked since i bought it.  No worries, i can kick start it and it runs just fine around my place.  I typically put it on a battery tender at the end of my riding (which up to this point hasnt exceeded 30 minutes due to other life obligations).  I have a trip coming up that i will be taking the bike on with me and want to get the charging system up to the task so i can rely on the bike to not strand me.
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I have gone through the manual and I will break down some of the steps I have already taken to get me to this point.  I feel as though Ive hit a wall based on the directions ive read on the forum and the shop manuals guidance and im unsure of where to go from here.  I will post pictures below to show what im working with (provided the forum attachments are working today, otherwise I will post them at a later date). Symptoms – Electric start will flop the engine over slowly then just click.  No charging voltage when running. Kick start fires the bike on the first kick, and the bike runs “normally” while on.  Voltage regulator status – Unknown (TBD). I started out by buying a brand new battery to be give me a good baseline so I wasn’t chasing my tail.  Next I wanted to address the brushes, knowing they were probably in bad shape.  As I suspected they were horrible.  Broken, and battered and all the way to the indicator line.  I pulled off the starter/dynamo to inspect the backside of it and the commutator.  As expected the commutator had signs of old brush debris and grime so I cleaned it up good, lightly hit it with 600 grit to get any glaze off of it and cleaned the mica between the contacts (unfortunately no after picture was taken).  Per the usual brushes are hard to find especially affordably or quick.  I ordered a set of over-seas brushes but in the mean-time took a trip down to a local starter/generator shop near me.  They were able to supply me with brushes that were very close to the originals.  I filed them down gently to fit, chamfered the edges then transferred the old cloth wire wrap from the old brush shunts to the new ones and crimped on new connectors.  These brushes cost me $2 each.. and an hour or so of fiddling. I gently cleaned up the pickups inside and then reassembled everything.  Unfortunately to no avail.  My system still wont electric start and still wont charge.
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Ive ran through some of the tests in the shop manual including some of the following.. 
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TEST #1 -  checking the brushes to verify that the positive side brush and the yoke don’t have continuity.  I did this by sliding out the positive brush while leaving the lead screwed on and metered. RESULT – No Continuity .. which as I understand is as it should be.  Correct me if im wrong but as soon I slide the brush in and it makes contact with the commutator it should have continuity since all four brushes are touching the commutator.. right? For reference with the dynamo off the bike and all of the brushes installed there is no continuity between the positive bakelite isolated brushes and the yoke. But there is continuity between the negative brushes and the yoke, which is my understanding that’s how it should be.
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TEST #2 – Testing the continuity between the commutator and the iron core.  RESULT – No Continuity
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TEST #3 – No Load Voltage test (Regulator). I hooked up the tester to the B terminal on the regulator and grounded the other end, turned the bike on and ran it to 2500 and 5000 for both parts of the test.  RESULT – 0 VOLTS !?!
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TEST #4 – When sitting with key on battery voltage is 12.8v, with the run switch flipped its virtually no different. With the LT GREEN disconnected from the starter relay and the meter connected to the LT GREEN post on the relay and the other side to ground I get minimal voltage drop when the button is hit.  Virtually the same result when the green is reconnected and then removed at the dynamo and the test retried from the end of the wire.  RESULT - When the system is wire as its supposed to be and the button is hit, voltage drops to around 10-10.5v while the button is depressed .. the engine lazily rolls over maybe twice then the relay just clicks.  (For the record ive also tried another used Yamaha starter relay I had in inventory and had the same result)
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TEST #5 – Disconnected the coil power, removed the spark plug, and ran the electric start.  RESULT – Engine spins over fast without hesitation. Battery voltage is consistent with test #4 at around 10.5v while the button is depressed.
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TEST #6 – Measure Charging Voltage by disconnecting the battery circuit at the fuse and taking a voltage reading. RESULT – Everytime I tried this the bike died and the voltage reading at the B terminal of the reg went to zeroTEST #7 – Regulator Continuity.  RESULT – BLACK, GREEN, and WHITE all have continuity between them when the regulator is isolated and unplugged.  Is this normal?  By having continuity isn’t this essentially grounding the white wire out down at the dynamo or does something in the regulator pull back when voltage is applied?  None of those three have continuity with the RED B terminal however.
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I have not yet tried arguably the most important test of all .. checking the dynamo with the jumper wire .. and heres why.  The first line of the test in the manual reads “First disconnect the wires from the terminals A (white) and F (green).”  From the photo im sharing it doesn’t look like my wire colors and the manuals terminal callouts match?  The manual shows F as green which coincides with my wiring, but the A terminal on mine looks to be empty leading me to believe my White is on the E terminal. But also why is there a small E stamped on the face of the yoke around 3 oclock where the black wire is screwed down? Looking at the outside edge color band on the generator cover it appears the dynamo is wired properly .. LT GREEN | ORANGE | GREEN | (blank) | WHITE .. so what am I missing?
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In the end I don’t care about electric start, I do know and understand it’s part of a necessary evil of getting the charging system going so more or less im doing my do diligence.  I also don’t mind buying replacement parts if that’s something I need to do.  I do feel though like ive gotten turned around reading this manual and im starting to get myself a bit confused on what I should try next.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I have about 30 days before my trip to try and get this figured out. Sorry for the complete NOVEL .. but I wanted you to at least have an idea as to my process.  Im aware my regulator still may be bad. And if that’s all it takes to get my charging system going then no worries, but before I check the dynamo I felt it was necessary to get a second opinion on my wiring / terminal situation.
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**EDIT** - Photo upload is currently down .. im attaching links to a third party photo upload site.. i  hope they work if not ill upload photos as soon as the forum is back up and running..
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Many thanks,Luke
Last edit: 17 Jun 2023 14:51 by Luke4554.
17 Jun 2023 14:47 #1

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I don't have time to respond more right now but starter and charging are interconnected in that they use the same armature. Otherwise they are somewhat independent systems occupying the same space. In other words your starter could work perfectly and it won't charge or it could charge fine and the starter won't work.
1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250
17 Jun 2023 15:21 #2

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  • Luke4554
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Replied by Luke4554 on topic 1976 DT125 Charging woes .. Im lost .. HELP!?!

MarkT,

thanks for the reply. I understand the concept of the two of them working independently of one another and I am honestly hoping if it is a scenario like that that the charging system comes out on top.. as the kickstart works just fine. If you have time later, to review a couple of the questions I have in the first post referring to the Dynamo wiring and the shop manuals terminal labeling I would great appreciate it. Any help/insight would be awesome. 

Luke
17 Jun 2023 15:27 #3

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Welcome from NZ. I was around & working on those when new but of course back then brushes were only ever the problem.
I've only read down to the pics at the mo [then visitors arrived] but also viewed your pics which are 'so clear' & expand up great. Must say it all looks dodgy 'as'. All the cleaning up & mica stuff is exactly what i'd do too.
I do see though that the armature has been touching on the field coils which leads me to think left crank bearing is extra bad, or the crank is bent or moved on the crank pin or something like that.
Armature looks bad looking at the end with pic expanded up.
I know you've cleaned up the commutator so i'd check continuity starting from one segment & going right around. Then check from any segment to earth--which shouldn't react to the steel center which i guess must tests the windings in the armature for shorting or burnt out shorted to earth.
Then--[where was i lol--visitors talking]--test the field coils in a similar way for continuity then to earth.
I'd say [without reading all just yet] that a new [good used] complete generator will likely be needed.
Good you're battery lasts the distance for a reasonable ride.
I'll just add that i've seen batteries fitted positive to earth by mistake but i know that's not going to happen in your case.
Also there's the regulator & cutout to consider but i wouldn't even go there at this stage & is likely A-ok.
Sorry--keep adding bits. I think you said the starter side struggles with a fully charged battery so lead me to thinking the armature or fields are bad. 
I'm not certain how it all works but seeing you're right into testing & fixing-- My neighbor had a visitor with a 6 cylinder Holden Car once 25  years ago that wouldn't start. Turned over like a very flat battery. So took a good battery over & no difference. So out with the starter motor & on the bench. Brushes were ok but one of the Fields had shorted to earth. Had flat alloy windings by memory riveted to wherever they go. So nothing to loose so bypassed one complete winding by memory & it fixed it & worked 100% [me thinking likely will be temporarily] but saw the owner a year or so later who said it just carried on until he sold it [Umm--pity the next owner].
So just thinking about your field coils, that's all.
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Last edit: 17 Jun 2023 16:49 by RT325.
17 Jun 2023 16:17 #4

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Replied by Luke4554 on topic 1976 DT125 Charging woes .. Im lost .. HELP!?!

RT325,

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

Next, Yikes..

Seems like worst case scenario. I should also add that I noticed this bike has what I thought was piston slap, that now I’m wondering may be something more considering you’re pointing out the armature contact. Now I’m worried..

When you say a new/used generator may be necessary, are you talking armature and the dynamo/starter cover thing (sorry the terminology is lost on me) .. I have been dreading the thought of having to R&R the armature after reading about problems people have had taking them off and getting them to reseat.

I will try to do some more testing on the commutator and I’ll try and post some updated pictures of everything after I cleaned it since I don’t have any right now. I did some basic checks but I definitely didn’t think to test every contact patch. I’ll report back.

As an aside does my generator wiring look like it’s connect to the right spots? And if so what terminals are the F and A terminals because I am still confused based on the manuals verbiage.

Regards,

Luke
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17 Jun 2023 16:40 #5

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Wrote a response then pushed cancel, bugger--i'm 'only' coming up 77 but defo loosing it lol.
Umm, think i said--If fields or armature are 'Not' shorting to earth then are likely shorting to 'each other' which would decreasing the resistance & ability to make voltage [Correct me someone?? guessing a bit]. So i'm sorry to say i don't think its going to end well. That would account for the starter struggling & no charge.
Wonder if you manually hold the cutout shut & see if there's any sort of charge. I guess not if won't pull the cutout shut by itself.
Could fit a magneto but might need the left crank half changed. & not sure if the stator can locate in the electric left case but i think its been done before [someone?].
With the armature back on & bolt nipped up, kick it over with plug out & look at how it spins--wobble or not--& grab it for up & down bearing play. 
Sorry i'm sure i don't need to tell ya all that.

Had a "75 just like yours & a good little bike it was too. Trade-in at work & quite tidy rich red wine color.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2023 17:42 by RT325.
17 Jun 2023 17:38 #6

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looking at the end of the Gene first pic the last two terminals must be close to touching--but only an issue if are touching of course.
17 Jun 2023 17:48 #7

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Replied by Luke4554 on topic 1976 DT125 Charging woes .. Im lost .. HELP!?!

If the two terminals you are referring to are the two on the far right. Those two terminals are actually connected with a tab. The terminal to the right side of the white connector is the connector for the positive brush on that side.
17 Jun 2023 18:03 #8

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www.dropbox.com/s/48zyx2tste8sq34/Photo%...4%2049%20PM.jpg?dl=0
 This is from a running AT2 125 looks like Dog poop 
17 Jun 2023 18:09 #9

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www.dropbox.com/s/7ez9kgr2urg1wxd/Photo%...5%2000%20PM.jpg?dl=0
  I’m doing a mild restoration on this bike too maybe this is close to your setup MarkT will know just follow his directions 
Last edit: 17 Jun 2023 18:18 by Ht1kid.
17 Jun 2023 18:16 #10

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